Episode 47 - The Transformative Power of Women's Travel

What's driving more and more women to travel solo or join women-only travel groups? This episode dives deep into the transformative power of travel with Sonja Thayer, founder of Rom-Soul Escapes, who specializes in creating women-focused retreats in Italy and Greece.

Sonja shares her journey from backpacking through Europe in the 1990s to creating curated travel experiences that combine wellness practices with deep cultural immersion. She explains why retreat-style travel provides the perfect balance of adventure and support, especially for women taking their first international trips or those seeking a break from caregiving responsibilities.

We explore how leaving behind the familiar forces us to become more present and aware, creating the perfect conditions for personal transformation. From making pasta in multi-generational family homes to painting watercolors with local artists, these authentic experiences connect travelers to both themselves and the cultures they visit in profound ways.

The conversation tackles common travel fears and how speaking them aloud often reveals them as less formidable than imagined. Sonja explains why she believes travel makes us "better humans, better stewards of the earth" by revealing our fundamental connectedness despite cultural differences.

Whether you're a seasoned traveler or someone who's dreamed of exploring the world but hesitated to take that first step, this episode offers inspiration and practical wisdom about how supported group travel can open doors to life-changing experiences. Ready to fill your cup with the sights, tastes and transformative power of travel? Listen now and discover how the journey beyond your comfort zone might be exactly what you need.

Website - https://www.rom-soulescapes.com/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/rom.soulescapes

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/romsoulescapes

If anyone would like to contact Sonja directly - Romsoulescapes@gmail.com 

Chapters

• 0:09 Welcome to Travels with Jim and Rita
• 1:14 The Rise of Solo Women Travelers
• 2:32 Meet Sonia Thayer: Lifelong Traveler
• 9:30 Removing Barriers to Women's Travel
• 13:55 Why Italy and Greece?
• 18:27 What Happens on a Retreat
• 21:55 Travel's Transformative Power
• 26:27 Upcoming Retreats and Contact Info
• 30:33 Breaking Through Travel Fears

Transcript

Jim Santos: 0:09

Welcome to Travels with Jim and Rita. I'm your host, jim Santos, along with my wife, rita, and welcome to the second season of our podcast. In the first season, we set in motion our crazy plan to outfox the real estate market in the US and actually increase our retirement nest egg by selling our home and car and spending the next three years or so living abroad and exploring the world. While we did manage to increase our net worth while we traveled, a bout of pancreatitis in Latvia caused us to return to the States for surgery and recovery and to rethink our plans in light of our ages and other factors. Enter Plan B. We now have a home base set up in eastern Tennessee and are ready to hit the road once again. Our plans are now to spend anywhere from six to nine months a year abroad, returning to the US to visit friends, family and to recharge. Join us now as the adventure continues on Travels with Jim and Rita. Hello everybody and welcome to Travels with Jim and Rita.

Jim Santos: 1:14

When Rita and I were living in Ecuador, we noticed that over the course of the six years there, there were more and more solo women, travelers and expats. Since then, we've toured other parts of the world and we've also noticed a lot of female travel groups. Now there's been articles written about social trends like longer lifespans, more working women with more discretionary spending, or simply women feeling more empowered than they did 30 or 40 years ago. But, for whatever the reason, women are looking at travel, particularly overseas travel, in a new light these days. So today we'll be talking with someone who's providing support for this growing community Sonja Thayer. Sonja is a certified yoga teacher, a lifelong traveler and a passionate advocate for the transformative power of travel. She has a deep appreciation for curating and creating beautiful experiences that capture the essence of the places, cultures and people of the region. Her retreats offer slow travel experiences that immerse participants in the local way of life, fostering authentic connections with the people and the places that they visit. So, Sonja, it's a pleasure to welcome you to Travels with Jim and Rita.

Sonja Thayer: 2:19

Thank you, it's so great to be here. I'm excited for this conversation and I appreciate you having me.

Jim Santos: 2:26

Before we get started, can you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got involved in travel?

Sonja Thayer: 2:32

I'd like to say I'm a lifelong traveler. Even as a little girl, I would just wander my neighborhood exploring new things, so I think it's something that's always been deeply rooted in my DNA. It's something that's always been deeply rooted in my DNA. I started solo traveling in my late teens to my parents' home of birth, which is Palermo, sicily, and it really woke up this sort of thirst for learning more about places outside of my hometown and that started an absolute love for travel.

Sonja Thayer: 3:10

I was a solo traveler throughout the 90s, visiting countries throughout Europe on my own. I would squirrel away as much money as I could from work and travel for two months during the summer, rinse and repeat, and at the time it was the backpacking stage of the 90s. I would solo travel, nothing but a backpack, find myself in youth hostels and these amazing communities of travelers, and it became such an eye-opening education, understanding the collective consciousness, how we're all connected in some way, and then also experiencing the amazing places and all they had to offer in terms of culture, cuisine. Just there's so much richness in the world to appreciate. So that's how I kind of started with my passion for travel, and life has taken me through many paths of travel. Life has taken me through many paths of travel. As well as traveling as a family, I have children and still some solo travel for work, to the point where everybody would reach out to me as the hey, you know any advice? We're going to this place, what do you suggest?

Sonja Thayer: 4:18

I became the person that people would reach out to for travel advice, which eventually led me into what I'm doing today, which is hosting community group travel and group retreats.

Jim Santos: 4:30

Was there any personal experience that led you down the path of mentoring travel specifically for women?

Sonja Thayer: 4:36

There was. So I think, being a traveler in the 90s and being a backpacker and kind of being a solo woman traveler, it's not the easiest thing to do, especially in countries where you're not familiar with the safety it might not have. You know, some places are very safe to travel and some can feel a little bit more like you want to travel with a group or in a group setting. So I think that for myself it was a courageous move. But sometimes I did wish I had a community to travel with. I wish I had that, you know, that person to share an experience with. And I found that in my younger years in youth hostels where you can go and you can find your community and you were in a group.

Sonja Thayer: 5:17

As I got older I found those opportunities were fewer and further between. There was the family travel and maybe you were traveling with your family or your friends or your significant other, or there was this sort of tours that you can go on that were shorter spans, very specific. You felt like you were ticking off boxes. So I felt like there was a missing part where women can get together in the community of other women, missing part where women can get together in the community of other women, feel like they have that supportive community and experience these beautiful places and the cultures and all of the beautiful parts of travel together in a safe, contained group. I've gravitated for women travel because I think that women are the caregivers of the world in many ways and we tend to need to fill our own cups. So when women travel together, I see this magical experience where everybody just kind of exhales collectively and is able to receive the nurturing that they give so freely by being in a community that's supported, that is a contained space where everything is really cared for for them.

Jim Santos: 6:29

Now, Rita and I have been to both Italy and Greece and have to say we love them both.

Rita Santos: 6:34

Yeah, they're a couple of our favorite countries. Definitely I've never worried about solo travel much. I haven't done a whole lot of it, but some, and of course with Jim and my previous relationships as well. But I've never been afraid anywhere, afraid to ask anything, afraid to do anything. I find it in my travels people have been so accepting and so helpful and warm that it's just been a great experience. Maybe I'm a lucky one, I don't know.

Sonja Thayer: 7:08

No, I agree with that and I feel the same. So I tend travel for me was always something that the decision to like, explore, was so grand to me that I always stepped fully into it. But what I find with many people the barrier to travel can be fear. Right, we're very familiar with our hometowns, we're familiar with how the monetary system, the language, the law, like we're familiar with those things and when you leave the comfort of home into a different country where everything is different, it can be anxiety inducing for many people. So I find that for that collective group, I wanted to remove that barrier. I wanted to make it something that is accessible to everybody.

Sonja Thayer: 7:55

And I have a lot of first time travelers, people who are traveling out of the country for the first time, that will join us on retreats and it's really magical because at first there'll be a lot of questions and there is a little bit of that fear of the unknown. And I watched that. I watched the bravery grow in the process of, you know, booking the retreat to attending the retreat. And many of these people are repeat, they'll come on a future retreat and they're counseling our new travelers that are coming for the first time, saying, oh, this is great. I've been there, I've done that, and there's this bravery and this, this beautiful openness that happens when people experience the world. You know, full on, and kind of overcome that fear, because I agree with you, rita, for me travel has only been, you know, such an open, enriching experience. But there's a learning curve there is.

Rita Santos: 8:47

I do think it's easier though now because English is the universal language. I mean especially with young people, or anytime you're around a hotel or tourist area, most of the people speak English of some type. It's not been like in the places like Istanbul.

Jim Santos: 9:08

Yeah, we couldn't read the signs, but we had no problem talking to people and ordering restaurants.

Rita Santos: 9:13

My first European experience was in the 70s, and every country was a different language.

Jim Santos: 9:20

A lot of it, I think, is taking that first step.

Rita Santos: 9:22

Yes.

Jim Santos: 9:24

And that's why what you're doing works so well, because you're kind of easing them into it.

Rita Santos: 9:29

Right.

Jim Santos: 9:30

And then, once you've traveled a couple of times, you start to realize that it wasn't such a big deal.

Rita Santos: 9:35

Right.

Jim Santos: 9:36

I think living in Ecuador for six years kind of just wiped that out of us.

Rita Santos: 9:40

Yeah, all over South America, just totally.

Jim Santos: 9:43

Yeah, After that it's yeah, whatever.

Rita Santos: 9:45

Yeah, you know, Europe is a similar culture, but South America is a whole new ballgame and we acclimated really quickly there.

Jim Santos: 9:55

Like we were saying, we could certainly see the appeal of Italy and Greece, but what is it about those two countries that you chose to focus on them for your retreats?

Sonja Thayer: 10:04

So for me, being Italian, both of my parents were born in Sicily. My culture has always been a very big part of who I am, and being able to share that and share that with people, there's something just so beautiful about that. I describe it as introducing a loved one to someone.

Sonja Thayer: 10:27

It's like this is so special. I want to introduce you to this amazing, you know culture, this place, and for me that opened up the love of what I do, because it you know I mean there's that that cliche that you know do something you love and you never work a day in your life. But I really believe that when it comes to this because for me, I'm so passionate about sharing my heritage, sharing this beautiful country, sharing that with people, that it just becomes a labor of love, and I'm specific about the places I pick. So, for instance, it started with Italy, because that was really very dear to my heart and somewhere that I experienced personally such a transformation, being there with the people and the culture. And eventually my curiosity opened to Greece. Being southern Italian, there's some Greek roots in there as well for me.

Sonja Thayer: 11:20

So I was very curious about Greece and I started to explore Greece on my own in my own travels, and eventually I felt that it was a place that also had so much to offer that I really wanted to share with people. At first I started looking at places to host retreats in Greece and I really felt the intentionality wasn't there at first because I wasn't finding the perfect space. But eventually the universe answered my call and I connected with the most beautiful property that is seaside in Greece, and the energy of the place, the energy of the community there and what it had to offer opened up Greece for me, and that's I'll be hosting two retreats in Greece this May that I'm really excited about as well. So it's a little bit of culture, following my curiosity and feeling that these places have something so unique to offer this May that I'm really excited about as well. So it's a little bit of culture, following my curiosity and feeling that these places have something so unique to offer people.

Jim Santos: 12:11

What part of Greece are you focusing on?

Sonja Thayer: 12:14

We are going to be just outside, about three hours from Athens, an area called Metsella, and it is a seaside resort near the Pelion Mountain Range, so it's a really beautiful, mythical and special place that we're going to be hosting in May.

Jim Santos: 12:33

Yeah, probably about halfway between Athens and Thessaloniki.

Sonja Thayer: 12:37

Yep, yeah, hours from Meteora. We'll be hosting a day trip to Meteora, as well as Skopelos and Skiathos, and we're going to be combining so many beautiful experiences on this trip that I'm really excited to share with people.

Jim Santos: 12:52

Those are two countries with really wonderful cuisine too, right?

Rita Santos: 12:56

Oh my God the food, yeah, my favorite really.

Sonja Thayer: 13:02

It's hard to come home after that, isn't it?

Jim Santos: 13:05

So fresh and so flavorful, oh yes, I came home from Greece and started learning how to make zucchini pancakes.

Sonja Thayer: 13:13

Yeah, Ah yes, it's funny, we host in Italy and a lot of the women after the retreat will buy a pasta machine. So yeah, it is really nice to bring those things home with you. I think that's one of the special things about travel is is you, aside from physical souvenirs, you bring home memories, and you also bring home different cultural foods or experiences and you can incorporate them and make your life at home even richer. So I think that that's a really special. The Greek olives?

Rita Santos: 13:44

Oh my goodness, we didn't. We were not crazy about olives until we went to Greece.

Sonja Thayer: 13:53

The olive oil and it was tremendous, just incredible, and the produce I feel like is so.

Jim Santos: 13:58

Love the markets.

Sonja Thayer: 13:59

Funny. Yeah, it's different. It's just different Like you can. You can like smell a tomato, right, you know?

Jim Santos: 14:14

mile away, or the size of the lemons in Italy. Oh my gosh, in Positano there are lemons the size of softballs. Yeah, all right. Well, I'm making myself hungry. So tell us about a retreat. What's a typical retreat like?

Sonja Thayer: 14:22

So most of our retreats are five to seven days. We find that that's a really nice amount of time to be able to settle in and experience. You know the I want to call it the greatest hits of the area that we're in we work with. Specifically, I feel strongly about community travel, two senses of community travel traveling within community, a group of like-minded women that's supportive, but also working within the local communities. So I like to work with local businesses, local retreat spaces, homeowners that have something special to offer, like, for instance, in our retreat in Italy.

Sonja Thayer: 15:04

We work with local artists for watercolor painting classes. We work with one of the first pasta making classes actually the first pasta making class just outside of Florence. That is in the most incredible family home that has been in the family for seven generations and we make pasta from scratch there family for seven generations and we make pasta from scratch there. So we really are intentional about the experiences that we choose for our guests, making sure that they are aligned with slow travel, local culture that gives back to the local community, the local economy. It's very important to me, and it has been from the beginning, because these are partnerships that I am making with people. You know not business, they're people and it's very special when we're able to. You know, I sharing a glass of wine. It's just, it's magical.

Sonja Thayer: 16:09

So, I really try and offer that to create more of a authentic and connected experience for both the people I work with and the guests that are coming on retreat with me.

Jim Santos: 16:21

So you do participate in the retreat yourself.

Sonja Thayer: 16:24

I do, I do, I facilitate, I'm there, I work with either within the workshops, I do work with different teachers. So some of my retreats are yoga-based wellness retreats, so we can start our day with yoga and movement and then have different cultural activities, day trips, food, wine, wine tasting you know all of the things. So I tried to combine. It's a little bit of a hybrid model. So there are a lot of like yoga retreats or wellness retreats out there, but these are cultural wellness combined. So my feeling is that when you're traveling, the more present you can be, the more you're going to experience a place If you can be in the moment, and I find that wellness activities like yoga, breath work help to ground you in the moment so that you're experiencing everything tenfold because you're really present for it. So it's important for me to combine things like wellness with cultural activities and day trips and the sort On your website, you use the phrase the transformative power of travel.

Jim Santos: 17:29

Now, rita and I have definitely been touched by that. But can you tell our listeners what that means to you?

Sonja Thayer: 17:35

Oh gosh, I would need four hours to tell you what that means, but I'll try. I will try and shorten it a bit. I will try and shorten it a bit.

Sonja Thayer: 17:50

For me, travel has been one of the biggest powers in my life to really shift my perspective. Part of it, I think, has to do with when you're traveling, you're leaving all of the comforts of home behind you and we can get very comfortable. Knowing what's next helps us feel safe in many ways. But when you're traveling, you're forced to leave that behind and you're forced to really be aware. Right, you're firing on every cylinder because you're aware of your environment. Things are new. You're, you know, you're on this heightened awareness and I think when we are completely aware, we really take in a lot and it can change us in so many ways.

Sonja Thayer: 18:28

It's an education, it's the newness of a place, can open our mind to things. It makes us better global citizens. It can open us up to new friendships, especially solo travel. When you're traveling by yourself, as I have for many, many years you're meeting new people, sometimes out of necessity, just being lonely and wanting to make a friend. Or you're trying to pronounce a word in another language and somebody's helping you do it, or you're using hand gestures to order a cup of coffee. These instant connections happen when this happens, right? These instant connections happen when this happens and it just makes us I feel it makes us better humans, better stewards of the earth, you know, when we understand that we are truly, truly dependent on each other and a global community and connected. Although cultures are different, systems are different, we are so connected. I think travel reminds us of that and just really allows us to fill in, become a hundred percent ourselves in the moment, and I just think that that is magical.

Jim Santos: 19:36

Yeah, we. We feel that, no matter where you go, all the culture is different, the language is different, the food's different, but the people are the same.

Rita Santos: 19:43

Yeah, everybody wants the same thing Health, happiness, love. Yeah, it's just the way it is, and until you travel, you might not really realize that. Exactly you know you see all the negative things on the news rather than the positive things of a culture.

Sonja Thayer: 20:01

Yeah, you're also leaving the distractions behind when you leave the comforts of home Exactly, and you know that's. It's funny, because that's one of the things I think that really, retreats are short they're five to seven days but they have a profound effect because people are able to leave those distractions behind, they're able to be present, they're able to really connect to themselves, understand themselves better and, in turn, understand the world better, because when you feel more grounded in yourself, you're able to reflect that out. So I do think that that's a great call, that the distractions really do hold us back in many ways.

Jim Santos: 20:40

Now, I'm sure you've seen a lot of examples of personal growth and discovery on these retreats, and I know you can't talk about anyone in specific, but can you recall any particular stories of a client that made you feel like all the work was worth it, that this is exactly what I've been trying to achieve?

Sonja Thayer: 20:56

Oh gosh, so many, so many. It's why I love what I do so much. For me, it's just, it fills my heart when I see these. I can share one specific. Actually. Maybe I'll share two quick ones.

Sonja Thayer: 21:09

Well, one is, and this is one of my favorite retreat guests are guests that have small children and families that they are constantly caring for. And there's this idea that going on retreat or spending money on yourself or time on yourself is selfish. It's going to take away from your family members. So they're usually there's a bit of like they have to convince themselves that they can do this right. But once they come on retreat, I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about it. Once they come on retreat and kind of refill their own cup and allow themselves that time, not only do they get much deserved nurturing that they need as well, but they go back to their families, their communities, their children stronger and better for it.

Sonja Thayer: 21:55

And I think that's just incredible when people realize that they have to give back to themselves, especially moms of young children or teens. Or you know it's you're on 24, seven in those roles, or that you know high demanding career that you're in that really is pulling all of your energy when you are able to fill your own cup again, you really do come back so much better for it. So those transformations I love, and I also love the new travelers, the travelers that have never left the country, that I just see their strength and their confidence in themselves bloom when they are like I just took a train from Milan to Florence by myself and I figured it out, I got on a plane by myself for the first time in 40 years. You know that's really special to me to. You know, have people understand how truly powerful they are and what they're capable of, and that the world is big and that they're. You know, that it's out there for them to experience.

Jim Santos: 22:57

Yeah, I understand both of those experiences. I think we relate to them as well. When we first moved to Ecuador, there was kind of that feeling of this is selfish, you know you're leaving your grandchildren behind. You're leaving your children behind. But if we had stayed in the States, we'd be seeing our grandkids, but mostly in the rear view mirror of the car while we drive them from place to place. Yeah, we'd be seeing our grandkids, but mostly in the rearview mirror of the car while we drive them from place to place.

Jim Santos: 23:22

Instead, we brought them to Ecuador to experience it for themselves, and it was the second point that you made. Then, seeing these people experience something that was completely new, completely different, was just a wonderful thing.

Rita Santos: 23:36

Oh, they loved it. They loved the people, the young kids.

Sonja Thayer: 23:47

They didn't even understand anybody.

Rita Santos: 23:48

They didn't speak the same language, but they all played together. Oh, I love that we were on the beach on the Pacific, so they could just run out and hop on the beach and meet people they so desire.

Sonja Thayer: 23:56

And what a beautiful example you set for them, right, this example that life is not confined to your geography. You can expand, you can expand your horizons, you can expand where you live, you can expand what you experience, and I think that that's a really important lesson to hand to our children and grandchildren that you're not confined to that level of sovereignty and, and like you said, the experiences that they're getting and the time and the quality of time that they're spending with you is probably much more rich than maybe that that day to day.

Rita Santos: 24:30

you know, yeah, and they learn that the only limits are the limits they put on themselves.

Jim Santos: 24:36

Exactly so what are some of your upcoming events?

Sonja Thayer: 24:40

So we are headed to Greece. I have two retreats coming up in Greece. One's May 16th to the 23rd and the other is May 24th to the 31st, and they're both only have two spots left in each. Unfortunately, they're nearly sold out. Unfortunately, they're nearly sold out, but they will have Greek dancing day trips, cultural yoga workshops. I mean, they're just incredible experiences. And then we have a trip to Tuscany, which is sold out. That one's actually sold out, but we'll be doing hands-on cooking classes, day trip to Cinque Terre, which holds a special place to my in my heart, um, as well as art classes and and just an incredible. We're in an incredible area of Tuscany for our retreats there, where the views are just magnificent, 360 degree views of the dream. What you, when you dream of Tuscany, what you imagine, that's the reality there. So those are coming up this spring and we will be announcing right after those are 2026 retreats.

Jim Santos: 25:48

What would be the best way for listeners to contact you if they're interested?

Sonja Thayer: 25:52

So my website, which is RomeSoulEscapescom, and I also have my social media, which is RomeSoulEscapescom, and I also have my social media is Rome Soul Escapes. So those are two great ways to reach me, as well as my email or direct contact. I love to. For me, I think when you're booking a retreat or any type of travel, you really have to connect to the experience and the people who are running it. So I always invite people to reach out to me directly and have a conversation with the human being behind the business, because every retreat is not for everyone. My travel experiences I'm always happy to share what they are and who they're for, you know. So I like to speak to people and make sure I'm the perfect fit for them, because your travel time, your time off, is very valuable and I want to make sure that my guests are getting exactly what they expect and an amazing experience so that they keep coming back and refer their friends and family.

Jim Santos: 26:48

So, yeah, Is there any particular advice or suggestions that you would have for people who are listening and saying you know that really sounds great, but I'm not really comfortable with traveling. I'm not really comfortable with being outside of my comfort zone. Do you even try, or how would you go about trying, to convince somebody like that that this is an experience they should embrace?

Sonja Thayer: 27:10

I think I love. I love those conversations with people because I usually find that people's fears, once they are able to speak them out loud, are not as scary. So sometimes people will, you know, say I'm not comfortable traveling because of A, b or C, and nine times out of 10, it's something that is actually not even necessarily true. So you know, travel has become, like you said, especially these days, very connected, easier. There's so many points of communication and it's not as scary as people think. So sometimes just speaking those fears out loud, talking about them, can dispel some of the myths that people have in their minds about travel and also, you know, just saying, hey, travel is not easy, it's, it's. You are coming out of your comfort zone, but the payoff is big. So, yes, it's okay to be scared and travel anyway, because what you'll find is every time you face a fear, it becomes less of a problem in the future. So I, you know, I love chatting with people about it and I actually, if somebody is interested on going on a retreat and they do have some fears or concerns, I invite them to schedule a free consultation with me where they can kind of speak through what their concerns are and I'll be very honest about. I'm not sure if travel's right for you right now, or I think you can do this, and there are people that have very specific concerns about maybe food allergies or fear of flying or things like that, and there's support that you can get so that you that these fears or these very real issues don't limit you. So there, there are ways to travel and get around those.

Sonja Thayer: 28:51

I I was a when I was a young traveler traveling, I was always terrified. It was every time I would get on a plane I'd be like what did I just get myself into? I'm getting on a plane, I'm leaving everybody I know, everything I love behind and I don't at the time you know, it was before cell phones and all of that Like. I remember sending a fax home to my parents just to letting them know I was okay, and I would get a scribbled back fax saying thanks for letting me Right. Right, these days we're so connected.

Sonja Thayer: 29:21

But that said, that fear was momentary Because once I got through traveling, that became such a like what was I afraid of? Was I making this bigger in the moment because of the unknown? So sometimes just tackling the unknown dispels it. But retreat travel is a great way for a fearful travel to get their kind of their feet wet in it. Because there's the support is there, you have a group of people, you have that support you have. Basically, you know I act almost like a travel agent for my guests, helping them with before and after their trip as well. So you know you have that support. So it does make it a little bit less scary.

Jim Santos: 30:02

Well, Sonja, thanks for taking the time to speak with us today on Travels with Jim and Rita, and we wish you much success in your efforts to inspire and awaken others to the joy of travel and becoming part of a global community.

Sonja Thayer: 30:13

Thank you so much. Thank you, it was great having this conversation.

Jim Santos: 30:16

If you'd like to learn more about Sonja Thayer and her work, you can check out her website, wwwromsoulescapescom. That's R-O-M hyphen, s-o-u-l escapes dot com, and we'll have links to that site and other contact information in the show notes. You've been listening to travels with jim and rita. If you'd like to read more about where we've been, see some photos of the places you've been hearing about, check out our blog at jimsantosbookscom and our youtube channel and instagram for videos. Meanwhile, you can access my books, audiobooks and short stories at jimsantosnet, and there are links to those sites Instagram, youtube and so on in the show notes. We'd love to hear from our listeners as well, so if you have a question or a topic you'd like us to cover or you want to tell your own travel story, email us at jim at jimsantosbookscom. Until next time, remember we travel not to escape life, but so that life does not escape us.