Travels With Jim and Rita
Discussing the challenges, rewards, and drawbacks of living overseas. Follow our decision to sell our home and live abroad until the housing market adjusts. Information for the would-be expat, digital nomad, roving retiree, or just plain traveler. Host Jim Santos is a published travel writer with over 200 articles and seven books (jimsantos.net). He and his wife Rita lived in Ecuador for 6 years, and are currently test-driving the roving retirement lifestyle. Jim is also the host of the popular "International Living Podcast".
Travels With Jim and Rita
Episode 45 - Paradise Found in Panama
Roy McGinnis and Julie Tallman return to the podcast with exciting news – they've officially committed to building a retirement home in Panama's Azuero Peninsula. After their initial exploratory visit left them enchanted with the rural charm of Petasi, they returned for two weeks to confirm their decision and put down a deposit on property in an expat development.
Their journey through Panama reveals a country of surprising contrasts. Panama City dazzled them with its ultramodern skyline (most buildings less than 25 years old), exceptional safety, and rich cultural experiences from the historic old town to the bustling fish market. Meanwhile, Pedasi captured their hearts with its small-town atmosphere where locals greet passersby from their porches with friendly "buenos," reminding them of American small towns from decades past.
What stands out most in their story is the authenticity they've encountered. "We're getting used to the fact that most people are just very genuine," Julie notes, describing how refreshing it is to experience straightforward interactions without the guardedness so common back home. This extends to their experiences with fellow expats and even their builder – an Israeli man coincidentally named Roy who has earned a stellar reputation for quality and integrity.
The couple shares fascinating insights into the practical aspects of their international move – from visa considerations to property ownership structures, from the surprising convenience of the Panama City airport to the unexpected challenges of quality household goods. Their timeline has them completing construction by August 2026, with a permanent move to follow once they sell properties and wind down work commitments in the States.
Whether you're considering a similar retirement adventure or simply curious about life abroad, Roy and Julie's candid conversation offers a window into how two Americans navigated the complex decisions involved in building a new life in Central America. Their excitement is contagious as they envision fishing trips, horseback riding, and exploring every corner of their future home country.
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Welcome to Travels with Jim and Rita. I'm your host, jim Santos, along with my wife, rita, and welcome to the second season of our podcast. In the first season, we set in motion our crazy plan to outfox the real estate market in the US and actually increase our retirement nest egg by selling our home and car and spending the next three years or so living abroad and exploring the world. While we did manage to increase our net worth while we traveled, a bout of pancreatitis in Latvia caused us to return to the States for surgery and recovery and to rethink our plans in light of our ages and other factors. Enter Plan B. We now have a home base set up in eastern Tennessee and are ready to hit the road once again. Our plans are now to spend anywhere from six to nine months a year abroad, returning to the US to visit friends, family and to recharge. Join us now as the adventure continues on Travels with Jim and Rita.
Jim Santos:Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Travels with Jim and Rita. We're counting down the days until we take off once again, this time starting off in the southern coast of Portugal a week in Seville, spain, then back to Portugal to speak at an international living conference, a few days in Lisbon and we'll be on our way to the British Isles and Ireland for six or seven weeks. Well, rita, I think it's safe to say you're looking forward to the trip.
Rita Santos:Absolutely. I'm biting at the bit to go.
Jim Santos:This will be the first time for both of us in all of these destinations, so we should have lots to talk about in the future. On the show here Now today, we have lots to talk about with two of our favorite guests, roy McGinnis and Julie Tallman. We spoke with them last in episode 40 back in January about their discovery trip to Panama. Now they're back to tell us about their return to scope out the Aswe Peninsula and the IL conference they attended in Panama City. All right, julie Roy, welcome back to Travels with Jim and Rita hey.
Julie Tallman:Hello.
Jim Santos:First of all, you got to spend some more time in Panama City on this trip and even visited one of our favorite places there, the Mercado de Mariscos.
Julie Tallman:Yes, oh, wow. Yeah, actually we visited that place twice. We liked it so much, on the front end and the back end of our trip. For sure we love that. And Panama City is really an amazing, beautiful and incredibly safe city. Yes, walking around at night to restaurants we never once did we ever feel like, oh, this feels sketchy.
Roy McGinnis:Yeah, something we heard someone say was that most of the city, what you think of the city proper, the high rise is only 20 or 25 years old, right? So much of it is new, new, new that in a way, it's newer than any US city.
Jim Santos:Yes. Did you get to spend any time in the old town, any US city. Yes, now did you get to spend any time in the old town?
Julie Tallman:We did, we actually stayed there On the front end. We stayed at an Airbnb for a couple of nights and loved that. If you can put me in a walled city anywhere in the world, I'm happy.
Rita Santos:I love it yeah, us too.
Jim Santos:We were in a high rise where you could actually see the fish market, yes, and every morning we would go down and walk around in the old town all over the place and come back. It was just a really nice time. The only problem we had last year everywhere we went they seemed to be having a heat wave.
Rita Santos:Yes.
Jim Santos:What was the weather like while you were in Panama City?
Julie Tallman:Yeah, I imagine, and in the city you would really feel that there were a couple of times when we were walking and we could feel the heat in a different and special way.
Jim Santos:Yeah yeah, we really couldn't go out walking much after about 9.30 or 10. Yeah yeah, it would just be too hot.
Rita Santos:We got our walking in between 7 and, and then we would go out and venture after 7 until we were ready to come back to our condo. It was just way too hot, it was 96 plus.
Julie Tallman:Wow, yeah, yeah, 100%. It was more reasonable this time, but I definitely saw the heat there and I think it strikes you differently in a city with all of the asphalt and everything.
Roy McGinnis:We definitely saw the difference in the heat between Panama City and Pettusy, where we were most of the time.
Rita Santos:To be honest with you, I absolutely love Panama City. You did too didn't you?
Jim Santos:Yeah, we loved it.
Rita Santos:I mean, it was a real contender for us.
Julie Tallman:Well, one of the things I want to point out to you in our effort to eventually have all the people we love near us is the area we're moving to is called the Los Santos region. Oh, that sounds good. Yeah, we like Panama City a lot, actually as well, and look forward to going back and, you know, doing something new that we didn't get the chance to this time. Every time, there will always be something new to do and to explore, Right.
Jim Santos:Yeah, they have two modern malls there, and then you've got the fish market and the fruit and vegetable market that we went to too. It's kind of across the street from the fish market, and the fruit and vegetable market that we went to too.
Rita Santos:It's kind of across the street from the fish market and we loved that grocery store that was in Old Town.
Jim Santos:El Macheto.
Rita Santos:Yeah, the sketchy part of Old Town. We loved that.
Julie Tallman:We'll have to go and try to find that.
Roy McGinnis:Jill and I took a walk to a kayak shop because I wanted to look at kayaks down there because I like to fish, and it was about a mile and a half. It seemed about four or five miles because of the traffic, right. But then so we thought, well, we got to get back.
Julie Tallman:It was not in a strolling kind of area.
Roy McGinnis:It wasn't Right. We took an Uber back and I think it was two or three dollars. That was the thing we were amazed with is how inexpensive the Ubers were.
Rita Santos:Yes.
Jim Santos:And fast.
Rita Santos:And immediate, yes, immediate.
Julie Tallman:Click the button until you are ready, because they would be pulling up. Yeah.
Roy McGinnis:And also just a thing that's taken me a while to get used to in Panama is you're not being punked. No one's trying to take advantage of you. They're very sincere people, yes, and that takes a little while to get used to, Of course, for the International Living Conference did you get?
Jim Santos:your questions answered there, or did you just come back with more questions?
Roy McGinnis:We got a lot of questions answered there. We've done a lot of deep diving or I had at least before but there was a lot of clarification and a lot of verification of things, and so it was well worth it.
Julie Tallman:It was really, you know, and it was interesting when we started that, because the big part of what they go into is where you want to be, and we had really kind of already answered that question for ourselves. I sort of wondered if it would feel like money lost that we didn't need to spend. But a couple of things happened, some of which was like we heard about other areas and, while we know where we're going to move, we at the same time really like are looking forward to being a resident there and having time to travel to these other parts of the country and explore it. But the thing that I noticed that was the difference between the big Denver International Living Conference and this smaller Panama, more specific area conference is we really felt like we had a lot more connective points with the people in attendance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, we've made a lot of friends.
Jim Santos:Well, let people in attendance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, we've made a lot of friends. Well, let's get on to the good stuff. You know, a lot of times you can visit a place for a few days and it seems wonderful, but then you come back and you notice all the little flaws that you missed the first time around. How was your return to Apeta Sea?
Julie Tallman:Oh, wow. Well, the first time we went, we were there for just three nights, so it was certainly a honeymoon period and two weeks is, you know, a short period as well. But we loved it so much and it really was just a verification that we had lucked into just the right place for us.
Roy McGinnis:And you know everything. I mean I heard somebody say there's something like 48 micro climates in Panama. I don't know, but there's a lot of them and there are a lot of micro, I guess, areas too. You know as far as like what you like in particular, but some people are urban, some people are rural. We're much more rural people and we walked around Pettus Sea. I remember one afternoon and I don't know why, I don't know, was it a weekend maybe, but people were just all on their porches and everybody was like buenos, buenos, and we just felt like we were in Mayberry. I mean, we felt like we went back in time to the. The Julie doesn't really remember the 60s, but I do.
Julie Tallman:I remember the 70s. It felt like my childhood it did.
Roy McGinnis:And you know, again, just getting used to the fact, that most people there's probably exceptions, but most people are just very genuine. And you know, we might ask a question of someone here and then kind of qualify it and think, okay, are they going to be okay with this? But if we ask a question, people would just be very authentic and answer and it was almost always positive. So we, we really loved it. Um, we even loved the expats, the gringos.
Julie Tallman:So yeah, that's good broad balls, but you know my mom, of course, is like what you're in central america, isn't it dangerous? And I was like, well, the sidewalks are a little sketchy yeah, absolutely well, definitely when she visits, be dropping her off at the front of the restaurant, not asking her to walk along the sidewalks right right? Yeah, that was the sketchiest thing that we experienced, but yeah, we love it and discovered that you can watch the sunrise on playa arenal and watch the sunset on playa desideros, something like that I always wrote something with a d and they're, you know, like a 20 minute drive apart because of the situation on the being on the peninsula there.
Jim Santos:Now, Roy, did you get to fish this time?
Roy McGinnis:I did, I just surf fished. I didn't go out in a boat because it's the dry season, is it's windy and everybody says, well, it's a little sketchy, you can go around the other side of the peninsula and fish. But we were, we were scouting a lot and I just need to put my line in the water.
Roy McGinnis:so that was good and it's just, I'll tell you he caught an eel and an ocean catfish yeah that's all right but you know, just to go on the beach and there'd be no one most of the time. We even took videos where we're there in the high season and I've taken videos like oh look, here we are again in the high season.
Julie Tallman:On the weekend there's no one on the beach and there are 12 people on the beach and the other 10 were some amazing, deliciously lovely Latina family enjoying the ocean together. Right, you know, it feels very local.
Roy McGinnis:We did find one beach that was, I think, very Latino-based and we loved it because you go walking in and there's this loud music, but it's really music that we love playing out of the big speakers. You know, it's just like a family reunion that you're not even a part of, but we loved it yes, something we noticed on the ecuador beaches is that it is a family affair you got a big canopy set up and you have three generations you have great grandma, grandma, mom and dad.
Jim Santos:Babies, yeah it's wonderful they're there for the day. Yeah, it's not a couple hours on the beach, they're there all day.
Julie Tallman:Because they have a much larger ability to just sit and enjoy life.
Rita Santos:Yes, they do.
Julie Tallman:It's something I need to practice.
Rita Santos:The kids are. You know they make toys out of seashells and you know they're not into electronics, they're just into make-believe and playing with each other. It's wonderful, it's beautiful.
Julie Tallman:Again back to our own childhood so did this uh visit.
Jim Santos:Accelerate your plans to relocate uh, yes, it did we.
Roy McGinnis:Um, we had actually the first trip we were there in september september um, we visited some little developments and because we're we're gonna buy, we're to rent, you know, build, and so my, my thought was we don't want to build and I don't want to be in a gated community or a an expat community, because it turns out we're going to build in an expat community. We met, we met the builder, just this fantastic guy he's. He has a great name. His name is Roy Right, he's from Israel. He's been building down there like 12 or 15 years. He doesn't live there now, but he's got a development. He's very controlled and very slow growth.
Julie Tallman:He's in his third phase. We talked to a lot of people and pretty much everybody said don't build unless they were talking about him and they were like oh, we like, everybody loved him, we stay our last Airbnb host from September. I ran into her at the little Pettusy airport and she said she got a look on her face when I said his name and she's like I love him and I can't get him to build for me out of the out of that community. So we feel like we're in just exactly the right hands in this.
Roy McGinnis:So in the last week or two we have sent him a chunk of money to get started on our house.
Rita Santos:Good.
Jim Santos:Isn't that fun Wiring money out into a different country.
Roy McGinnis:Out into space in a different country. Oh yeah.
Julie Tallman:Yeah, but he's got it and we're pretty much trusting he's going to build us a house.
Jim Santos:So you've bought a lot there. Then You've bought a property already We've bought a lot.
Roy McGinnis:We picked out the floor plan.
Julie Tallman:It's kind of one of those communities where you choose between a limited number of floor plans. Yeah, I think he had like five floor plans and he had two or three of them were three bedroom floor plans. So we selected one of those and we picked our lot and put the deposit down on the lot and there's a big finca behind us, a big farm behind us, and he had he sort of indicated he knew the farmer. So I'm imagining that he's going to have a very persuasive conversation with that farmer about me letting me keep a horse back there. Oh cool, yes, yeah, we've already gone as far as sort of selecting what cabinets we want built because he's curing the wood for us.
Rita Santos:Oh, that's wonderful, that's exciting.
Jim Santos:Do you have a return trip planned?
Rita Santos:We don't.
Roy McGinnis:We don't. Yeah, we're probably going to wait. Well, fishing season is coming up, so that might be part of the plan, at least for me. But we're going to let them get a few things done on the house and then we'll probably go down and just.
Julie Tallman:I think we'll go back somewhere between May and October.
Jim Santos:Yeah, well. Well, what's the timetable on the house?
Julie Tallman:when do they start working on it well, they're starting already because they have to put the aseptic in during the dry season. Oh yeah, so that's really what he's focusing on. But the contract actually says he'll complete by august of 26. Um, it may be done sooner, but he is willing to kind of structure the build to coincide with our readiness.
Jim Santos:That's nice are you in the same community as Dave and Debra we talked to a few weeks ago?
Julie Tallman:we're not. We love that community, but it has a little bit of a little bit more of a challenge when it comes to infrastructure. But this whole little area I think there's three to four thousand people in the town you feel like you're in everybody's community yeah yeah, one that we're in it's called roy's project roy's project.
Roy McGinnis:Okay, he's drilled enough wells, whereas the one that deborah and dave are in there, they lack enough water. He there's no hoa fee. He kind of keeps it all maintained eventually they're probably it might be down the road, but he's, he's last 12 years. Just had someone maintain it just to avoid any skirmishes with anybody who's living there. So very careful and but kind, just a very, very good man.
Rita Santos:Now, do you have other than his? Well, do you have any cisterna that, if it did get a dry spell, that you could store water?
Roy McGinnis:We have a 450 gallon storage tank that goes in.
Rita Santos:OK.
Roy McGinnis:But again, it's not from like rainwater, it's all from the well, apparently. They've just never had any problems there in that particular community.
Julie Tallman:But if that were needed we would have that added, for sure A little bit needed.
Roy McGinnis:I like to garden.
Jim Santos:So where are you in relation to the town and the beach?
Roy McGinnis:We're about a mile from each somewhere thereabouts, so we'll be getting e-bikes and riding back and forth between the different areas.
Jim Santos:Now, what's the terrain like there? Is it completely flat, or do you get hilly as you move away from the beach?
Julie Tallman:Oh, wow, you know what. Oh, wow, you know what. So, while the town itself is very flat and easy to travel around, we did a couple of day trips and there is, in very short distance, incredible mountains incredible and hill country yeah, both with views. So we were actually really startled. We drove out to Cambutal and then came back and took a wrong turn and ended up like going a different way than we meant and it was. It was like a roller coaster. It was amazing, amazing, and we also spent a day with some locals that we met, who were just amazing, who have a non-profit that benefits the, the locals who really need it there, and we spent we thought we were going out to see like beaches and fish and stuff, and we instead we went and we delivered necessities to people who really needed them and it was was extremely humbling. And we also were in these various hill communities around and there the terrain is wild and impressive.
Jim Santos:Something you touched on earlier. You're not just moving to that one location. You've got an entire country to explore now.
Julie Tallman:And there's a lot that we saw at the international living conference that we we wanted to look into. I really want to go to Bocas del Toro and spend some time there and in Chihuahua, and we made some wonderful friends and future people for you to interview while we were there as well, who just finished their own tour of Panama and looked at all the places, and they've decided to stay at a high rise in Panama City because they want to be close to the major airport and able to come to the Midwest quickly if their parents have, you know, any issues, and it's been really. It's really a gratifying thing, I think, when you're an expat or approaching being one, to see the sorts of friendships that start to develop because of this commonality that you have, absolutely.
Rita Santos:I think if we were to ever stretch to Panama, it would be the city. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did really like the city. We love the city.
Jim Santos:And that airport is a great airport to be close to.
Rita Santos:Yeah, it is yes, you can fly almost anywhere from that airport.
Julie Tallman:Yes, that's a hub. Yeah, I was looking at all of the places you could take direct flights to from Panama City and you probably know this.
Roy McGinnis:But you know people here who've never been to Panama or Central America. You say Panama and I think they picture Mosquito Coast. You know like, yeah, I was really surprised at just metropolitan and also how convenient, Like we took a flight. Ok, if you drive from Panama City to Pettisie, it's they say five For me and Julie, it's seven, I have to stop a lot. But if you fly with a little private guy, trip is called, it's like literally 35 minutes, Fly, trip, Fly trip.
Roy McGinnis:It's unbelievable. I'm like really we can do this. Yeah, it's just a little hop right over to Tennessee, so it's not even as bad as a lot of commutes you might have in a city.
Rita Santos:And they give you booze yeah.
Roy McGinnis:They have a cooler in the back. We have drinks in the back and then, as we're going at them like it's half of it's beer. These people are great.
Jim Santos:So are you working on your immigration?
Roy McGinnis:papers now, oh yeah.
Julie Tallman:Aviza.
Roy McGinnis:Aviza yeah.
Julie Tallman:Not quite yet.
Roy McGinnis:No, not yet. We're trying to. I've been the one digging into all the chronology of this. What type to get?
Rita Santos:Yeah.
Roy McGinnis:We'll get that.
Jim Santos:I just got my social security.
Roy McGinnis:Yes, so we can absolutely get it. You know, looking at all the fun realization of realizing.
Julie Tallman:Not only does he have a limit on what he can make with his social security. If we're married, then he also has a cap related to what I make, and so we've been debating whether we do a pension auto for him and a friendly nations for me.
Rita Santos:You know, I'm going to be really upfront about this. We got ours together, didn't we? Yes, but if one of us would have passed away, the other one was kind of in limbo. So maybe getting your separate visa is not. You need to talk to an attorney and see.
Jim Santos:Rita was the primary and I was the secondary.
Rita Santos:Yes, and I'm older than Jim, and if I would have kicked the bucket he wouldn't have had a visa.
Roy McGinnis:so oh, wow, that's interesting well, the other thing we found out is we have to. If we, when we buy the property, we need to buy it in a foundation, essentially because panamanian laws are different. Who knew? And if you know, if I died, then, julie, my part would go to probate.
Rita Santos:Right.
Roy McGinnis:It's a foundation and that therefore none of it goes to probate. It's just. It's all the little intricacies of law.
Jim Santos:Were you able to get a investment visa, since you're buying property there?
Julie Tallman:There is the potential for an investment visa or a friendly nations visa, both which involve investment in the country. Just different levels of investment.
Roy McGinnis:At different times and different costs and reasons.
Julie Tallman:Yeah, the investment visa is quite pricey.
Jim Santos:You get immediate pricey it is.
Rita Santos:Remember the young girl we met.
Jim Santos:Yeah, I don't know how friendly our nation will be for a while here.
Rita Santos:Yeah, I don't either.
Julie Tallman:Yeah, that's for sure. I know they may remove us from the friendly nations, but yes, should we decide to use the traditional investment visa, our home does qualify us, just qualifies us.
Jim Santos:So if it's finishing up in August of next year, do you have a vague idea yet of when you want to actually make the move?
Roy McGinnis:You know we're again tomorrow. I've got the counter on the wall that I put down things, cause I told you I have to see at least an entire year.
Julie Tallman:Yeah, I don't know, we we've got to sell some properties and then uh close up shop more or less with work and by selling properties we mean fixing them up and then selling them yeah, well, it's lots of fun things to be thinking about anyway it is it? Is.
Roy McGinnis:It's very exciting well, we can't even get to the fun part yet, you know, because the business part of it, but because ultimately, julie wants a horse there and I want to, I want a fishing boat. So we're a lot from that. At this point.
Jim Santos:We're like a year and a half yeah now, are you shipping your goods there too, or gonna just?
Roy McGinnis:try to sell everything we've got. We, okay, I have. We have three kayaks. One of mine is like my fishing kayak and it's, you know, a little bit expensive and then so if we were to ship that, that requires a 20 foot container and therefore we might as well ship a bunch of stuff. Right, we're trying to crunch the numbers and see whether we're better to just sell what we have and rebuy.
Rita Santos:We did a lot of shopping in Ecuador looking, shopping, trying to figure out should we bring our things? Should we all buy all new things? What are we going to do here? And really, we shipped a 20-foot container. The quality wasn't there.
Jim Santos:Yeah, on your next trip maybe you should spend some time shopping and seeing, because even if you can get the products there, like for instance a cookware you could buy cookware there, but the pots and pans are very thin and the silverware would bend if you tried to cut something with it Now before we wrap up. I understand that you guys have been to at least two of the destinations that we're going to this spring Lisbon and Scotland.
Roy McGinnis:Oh, yeah, yeah, I've been to Lisbon. Julie has.
Julie Tallman:I've been to Lisbon, but we went to Scotland together and loved it and I saw you say Edinburgh is a great city and if there's any way, you can get to Isle of Skye, that was my favorite place in Scotland.
Roy McGinnis:It turns out that Julie and I discovered we were on an Airbnb in Isle of Skye and I won't make this a long story, but we discovered a graveyard where it had. It was probably 150, 200 years old and it had on one tombstone McGinnis and McCutcheon.
Rita Santos:Oh my gosh.
Roy McGinnis:You know she's from West Virginia, I'm from Georgia.
Julie Tallman:I said I thought you looked familiar.
Roy McGinnis:But we did. Look, guy, if you can get out there. It's very different. Uh, you know viking history and, uh, it's just a whole different part of scotland, but it's worth exploring yeah, absolutely beautiful, and of course, the uh distilleries. I don't know a bourbon drinker, but oh gosh, the distilleries are just unbelievable.
Jim Santos:Well, we're really looking forward to it. I know, yeah, anything we should avoid in Scotland.
Julie Tallman:I actually the beer.
Roy McGinnis:Not that good. Well, they have a law there that if it's over a certain ABV they tax it as like a liquid.
Jim Santos:Oh, okay.
Roy McGinnis:So here it might be say 6% will be like 3%. There it's the same name on it, but it's not the same name. And it's warm, and it's just and it's warm.
Julie Tallman:Not that tasty, so I loved yeah, I loved the gin. I thought the gin was fantastic there and they have like rhubarb infused gin really delicious, and I was not as much a fan of the scotch oh, I like the scotch I guess we can't really visit england without trying a gin and tonic and can't go to scotland without having some scotch no, probably a local.
Rita Santos:Go to ireland have guinness.
Julie Tallman:You know, that's the way it is so, but no um, edinburgh is a cool town and you'll love it and it's a great city to walk and we loved the Scottish borders tour. We thought that was really fun and worth the day, and we will and we remember somebody told us to go to the end of the world pub I think that was the name of world's end pub.
Jim Santos:We did that and we had a really fun and funny experience there and the food was fine and good and so yeah roy and julie, it's always a pleasure talking with you both and I hope sooner or later our paths crawl somewhere in the world. Look forward to hearing more about your place in uh panama well, we enjoy it.
Julie Tallman:We always enjoy talking with you too hope to see you guys in person sometime soon.
Roy McGinnis:Yeah.
Jim Santos:You've been listening to travels with Jim and Rita. If you'd like to read more about where we've been, see some photos of the places you've been hearing about, check out our blog at jimsantosbookscom and our YouTube channel and Instagram for videos. Meanwhile, you can access my books, audiobooks and short stories at jimsantosnet and there are links to those sites Instagram, youtube and so on in the show notes. We'd love to hear from our listeners as well, so if you have a question or a topic you'd like us to cover, or you want to tell your own travel story, email us at jim at jimsantosbookscom. Until next time, remember, we travel not to escape life, but so that life does not escape us.
