Episode 18 - Embracing the World as a Family: Wanderlust and RV Living

Nestled in the vibrant heart of San Miguel de Allende, Rita and I have found a rhythm to life that pulses with the local flair—and yes, even an encounter with Montezuma's revenge. But it's the stories that we're really excited to share with you, particularly those from Jennifer M. Sparks, who swapped her rocket scientist badge for a passport to nearly 50 countries. Join us as we explore Jennifer's transformative odyssey from childhood dreams to bulldozer rides in Africa, and how her wanderlust has been a constant compass guiding her incredible journeys.

The essence of slow travel doesn't just reshape landscapes; it remolds family life too. We unravel the tale of a couple whose overland quest through the Americas became a philosophy, birthing a book to guide the travel-hungry souls among us. Their transition from nomadic bliss to parenthood didn't put the brakes on their travels; it fueled adventures through Mexico with their son, reinforcing the bond with locals in places where family is paramount. And if you've ever wondered how wandering the world with little ones in tow might look, we're dishing up some hearty food for thought.

Now, let's get practical. The RV life can be as freeing as the open road, but do you rent or do you buy? We've been there, weighed the costs, and have tales to share about the liberating life of camper van travel. Jennifer weighs in with her expertise, straight from the pages of her book "Slow Travel – Escape the Grind and Explore the World," and together we muse on giving our children not just roots but also wings. So hop in, buckle up, and let's embark on a journey of discovery that just might inspire your next great adventure.

Chapters

• 0:19 Slow Travel Adventures & Insights
• 13:48 Discovering Slow Travel and Family Adventures
• 19:28 Traveling With Children
• 31:45 Europe Travel in Camper Van
• 41:51 RV Rentals vs. Buying

Transcript

Jim Santos: 0:19

Welcome to Travels with Jim and Rita. I'm your host, jim Santos, and in this podcast series you can follow along as my wife Rita and I work out our crazy plan to outfox the real estate market in the US and actually increase our retirement nest egg by spending the next three years or so living abroad and exploring the world. Are we bold, forward-thinking pioneers or just plain nuts? Let's find out together, shall we? Welcome everybody. I'm Jim here with my lovely wife Rita, and this is Travels with Jim and Rita.

Jim Santos: 0:58

We're still in San Miguel de Allende in central Mexico, slowly adapting to the heat. The mornings have actually been quite pleasant and we've been out walking just about every day. In the mid-afternoon we've found it's best to take a cold shower and a nap, but we can venture out again if we like once the sun goes down. We're starting to feel at home. We've found a nice place to get our laundry done we love using the Mercado and we've found a few small stores that provide just about everything we need. As we get to know our neighborhood, I have had to suffer through a small bout of Montezuma's revenge, but things are starting to look up.

Jim Santos: 1:33

After a visit to the local farmacia. Our guest today is Jennifer M Sparks. Like us, jennifer is a fan of slow travel and travel in general, having been through nearly 50 countries on six continents. Her book is called Slow Travel Escape the Grind and Explore the World, and she's here today to talk about her adventures and how you too can get out and explore the world. Jennifer, welcome to Travels with Jim and Rita and thanks for joining us.

Jennifer Sparks: 1:57

It's my pleasure.

Jim Santos: 1:59

Jennifer, I do want to talk to you about your book Slow Travel - Escape the Grind and Explore the World. But first of all could you give us a little bit of background about yourself, where you came from and how you got interested in travel?

Jennifer Sparks: 2:12

Yeah, so I grew up outside of Philadelphia, didn't have a ton of experience to travel growing up, but there were a few isolated instances that really opened my eyes up and made me realize that I was just captivated by, I guess, the wider world and those you know built up the influence over the years. So you know just some isolated incidents where you know I went on my first airplane and that's for a trip to Disney World and I don't remember anything about Disney World but I remember everything about taking that airplane flight and you know, and when I was in like second grade my dad got a job assignment with his company to Phoenix, arizona and so we did a road trip cross country with the whole family and I remember so much about that experience that yeah, it kind of stuck with me.

Jim Santos: 3:01

You describe yourself as a recovering rocket scientist.

Jennifer Sparks: 3:05

Yeah, it kind of stuck with me. You describe yourself as a recovering rocket scientist. Yeah, so part of my, I think, interest is we talked about how I was interested in airplanes. You know I was also very interested in space growing up, you know. I remember, you know, the first space shuttle flight and I was always interested in math and science.

Jennifer Sparks: 3:22

So engineering was my focus in college and I ended up choosing aerospace engineering. I think my goal at the time was to become an astronaut and I think it was because of the adventure aspect of it. So I ended up getting three aerospace engineering degrees, including my doctorate. So, yeah, I am a rocket scientist. But the interesting thing is is that as I grew into adulthood and got a taste of more exotic travel in the US, specifically overland travel, I decided that I didn't want to apply for the astronaut program. I had learned, I had actually met several astronauts and learned the realities of what their lifestyle was like and how many of them were on their fourth or fifth marriage. You know, it's just, it's just a really, really hard lifestyle, and so the adventure aspect of it to me wasn't worth it and I discovered that I could get that sense of adventure through your travel.

Jim Santos: 4:18

Yeah, it sounds like it's the exploration that you're more interested in.

Jennifer Sparks: 4:22

Absolutely.

Jim Santos: 4:23

Yeah, the way you get there it doesn't matter as much as as uh, once you were there.

Jennifer Sparks: 4:27

Yes, I would agree with that.

Jim Santos: 4:29

So, uh, I understand you got your first passport in your twenties. Uh, what was your first trip outside the country?

Jennifer Sparks: 4:34

Uh, it was actually to New Zealand.

Jim Santos: 4:37

Um interesting.

Jennifer Sparks: 4:38

Yeah, so I went pretty far field. Uh, so you know I spent a lot of my twenties in college very poor. So I spent a lot of my 20s in college very poor, as you can imagine, and so it was only after I got out and started making money and started paying off my student loans and everything that I was able to to Southeast Asia where he was going to go backpacking for three months. So I supported him on that and said go ahead and go do it. We made a plan that at the end of his trip that we would meet up in New Zealand for a month, and so that's what we did.

Jim Santos: 5:16

So how long did you stay in New? Zealand? Just a month.

Jennifer Sparks: 5:19

Yeah, a month. We did it like a road trip. We rented a car, we flew from Auckland down to Christchurch, rented a car or hired a car, as they say there and did a loop around the Southern Island and then the ferry across and basically returned the car back to Auckland.

Jim Santos: 5:35

You also list a bunch of the different ways that you have traveled. What jumped out to me was by bulldozer.

Jennifer Sparks: 5:41

Oh.

Jim Santos: 5:42

Seems like you can't get very far in a bulldozer, but I guess there's nothing to stop you right.

Jennifer Sparks: 5:46

Right, yeah, so one of the trips we did was we did an overland trip through Africa in a Land Rover Defender 110 that we helped assemble, so that's a whole other story. We, when we were traveling in Africa, we ended up joining a lot of bulletin boards, traveling bulletin boards. This was, you know, in the early days of the Internet, and so we met up. We decided to meet up with other travelers so that we could go through, you know, congo, congo and Gola together.

Jennifer Sparks: 6:19

And kind of safety in numbers and just sort of keep our spirits up a little bit, because you know it would be a little bit different of an experience. We weren't really sure what to expect. As it turned out, when we were in Congo and this is the Republic of Congo we ended up staying with this forestry company and they put us up for the night, which was really nice and fed us meals and everything and offered to take us on a tour of their establishment, and part of that included riding a bulldozer through the forest. Wow, so that was traveled by bulldozer.

Jim Santos: 6:53

If I understand, this trip started around 2003?.

Jennifer Sparks: 6:57

Yes.

Jim Santos: 6:58

Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that Land Rover. You shipped your Land Rover to Southampton in the UK. Isn't that kind of an expensive proposition?

Jennifer Sparks: 7:06

It is. But logistically it was the best way to go about it because we could prepare the vehicle at home and get all the fittings and extra stuff that we wanted on the vehicle itself. Plus, we could pack up the vehicle, the internal stuff that we needed, like our kitchen kit and our spare parts and all that other stuff, and put it in the vehicle and then and then ship it. But you know, we shipped two vehicles, so it was us and another couple, and so we took up one 40 foot container with the two vehicles and I think I think it ended up being like $5,000. And we've shipped vehicles several times now.

Jennifer Sparks: 7:47

We shipped to Southampton, we shipped from Cape Town back to the US, we've shipped from Panama to Colombia and we shipped from Argentina back to the US, and every single time it ended up being about the same price. It was, like you know, it's like $5,000 every time and most of the expenses, like the port fees and the labor of moving it once it's on the ship, the cost isn't really that much. It almost doesn't matter how far you go. And in the case for going to Southampton, you know a truck actually picked up the vehicles outside of our house. We loaded, we drove the vehicles up into the shipping container of our house. We loaded, we drove the vehicles up into the shipping container, latched it and then the truck drove the shipping container to Houston and then put it on a ship and then we picked it up in.

Jim Santos: 8:33

Southampton. Now that was the start of a fairly epic journey there, driving all the way from the UK down to Cape Town, south Africa. What was the impetus behind that trip? I mean, why Southampton UK? Why did you start this in the first place? Was it with the intention of doing this year-long travel?

Jennifer Sparks: 8:50

It was. So the inspiration for that particular trip came from my husband's friend, graham, who actually grew up in Southern Africa, in Lesotho. It's a separate country, it's kind of completely surrounded by South Africa, and he always you know his parents had always talked about going back to the UK, which is where they were from overland, and that never happened. But it was planted the seed. Whit and Graham went to high school together, along with Graham's wife Connie, so three of them all went to high school together. So this was something that they had been tossing around for years before I came into the picture.

Jennifer Sparks: 9:22

My interest in Africa is I dated a guy who ended up Peace Corps in Rwanda and we were pen pals through that whole experience and I was really captivated by some of those experiences and some of the stories. He loved that so much he ended up staying for a third year, and so you know I had an interest in Africa as well. So that was sort of the impetus behind it and so we shipped to Southampton. Graham's parents lived in England at the time and so we had a good home base to start from. And yeah, so you know the London to Cape Town trip is sort of an epic trip that a lot of people you know in that world aspire to do.

Jim Santos: 10:08

Something that listeners to our podcast are always asking us or very curious about is how do you manage financially to take a year of your life and go out and travel?

Jennifer Sparks: 10:20

Really good question, and that's a question I get a lot. Actually. You know, for that trip we we saved up some money and we put it aside. We rented out our townhouse. We actually owned a townhouse the time. We bought it, shortly beforehand, but we, you know. So we had a mortgage, so we rented it out to cover the mortgage, so we wouldn't have that home expense, and then, of course, we weren't paying utilities and things like that because our tenant was doing all that. So, in essence, we got rid of our home expenses. A lot of times when you go on vacation, you're still. You're gone for a week or two or whatever, but you're still taking care of those expenses. So everything on your chip is above and beyond that. Looking back, we ended up spending $30,000 on the year in Africa.

Rita Santos: 11:07

Okay.

Jennifer Sparks: 11:08

And that was the biggest expense. Was gasoline or or actually diesel fuel? We probably are. Two biggest expenses were diesel fuel and visas, you know, because visas, visas, were a lot of times like 80 to a hundred dollars each. But you know, when you put all that together, I mean then shipping the car is 10 000 of that right right and the rest is living expenses. And you know groceries and food, you know pretty cheap you know, we even did some we splashed out and did some you know, some safaris.

Jennifer Sparks: 11:43

We actually did most of the stuff we did ourselves, but we did do some package trips. We did a trip where we climbed Kilimanjaro, we did a package safari to Gorongoro crater and the Serengeti All that. I mean, it's still, you know, if you look at what your expenses are. Of course, that was 20 years ago, so everything's more expensive now, but even then, when we looked at how much money we were spending to live our lives at home, it was a lot cheaper to travel.

Jim Santos: 12:16

Yeah, I think that is an excellent point and it really surprises people when you talk to them about travel like this. I mean, you got rid of that home expense by renting it. We actually sold our home for this for the next few years, but it's amazing how much that cuts out of your budget when you don't have to worry about that home. I think people are used to thinking of travel as vacation travel.

Rita Santos: 12:39

Yep.

Jim Santos: 12:39

And they're used to these big expenses for the travel, big expenses for accommodations and food and everything. But yeah, that's definitely a big advantage of slow travel is that it's a lot less expensive than people imagine it to be.

Rita Santos: 12:51

But when we moved to Ecuador for six years, we kept our home and rented it out just like she did, and it kept gaining in value. So two different ways to look at it, you know.

Jennifer Sparks: 13:05

And the other thing is is that there's a lot of recurring expenses that we all take on. I mean, these days it's different, like Netflix and things like that, but you know, you give up your gym membership. You give up, you know, like things that you're not going to be using while you're gone.

Rita Santos: 13:19

Right.

Jennifer Sparks: 13:25

And when you start doing that, it's like it's amazing how that adds up, you know. And so when we were on the road I mean we didn't really have any big expenses, so it was it was actually kind of a shock to come back and find out how expensive everything was.

Jim Santos: 13:37

Yeah, it's always a shock to us when we returned to the U S, not not just how expensive, but how fast everything is moving.

Jennifer Sparks: 13:43

Yeah.

Jim Santos: 13:43

Now your book. Book, of course, slow Travel. Escape the Grind and Explore the World. When did you start thinking of yourselves as slow travelers?

Jennifer Sparks: 13:52

That's a good question. I mean, by the time I got around to writing the book, it was after our second overland trip, and the second one was two and a half years through the Americas. I don't know that I ever used the word slow travel before I wrote the book. I think it was partially because I had had so many questions from people about how do you do this? Because they must have thought we were, like you know, independently, wealthy or whatever to do it, and I think that's a common misconception. And you know, when it came to writing a book, the best use I could think of to do that was to try to help other people do what we did and try to lay it out in a way that anybody could follow. And I didn't think it just applied to overlanding, I think it could be used for any kind of travel. And in fact we spent, you know, a year in Europe where lion's share of that time was staying in Airbnbs.

Jennifer Sparks: 14:47

And so I think that a lot of the concepts you know reach a wider, can reach a wider audience than just overlanders, and a lot of people don't know what overlanding really is. So I was looking for a way to express the concept without relying on that word.

Jim Santos: 15:05

So your book also contains tips and advice for people who are considering basically any kind of travel.

Jennifer Sparks: 15:10

Yeah, I mean it's basically something beyond just a vacation. You know, somebody wants to do something, wants a little bit more out of life than just taking two weeks every year or whatever it is that you're lucky to get from your job to to go explore the world. You know how would you go about doing that?

Jim Santos: 15:26

After this trip in Africa, returned to the States and took up family life, gave birth to your son, Quinn.

Jennifer Sparks: 15:33

Yeah, Um, we, you know, settled back into our, our jobs. We had our companies were. We were really fortunate they gave us a leave of absence companies were we were really fortunate.

Jennifer Sparks: 15:43

They gave us a leave of absence and so we use that. So we were actually, I guess, technically employed when we went to Africa. That was very, very fortunate, and that wasn't the case with our other trips. But we kind of our priorities changed when we traveled and we weren't really sure we wanted to go back to our previous lives, but as it turned out, that's what we ended up doing, yeah, and then our son arrived, and I think I was knee deep in diapers when I decided I wanted him to see the world, and so we started talking about, you know, taking another trip and when would be a good time to do that. We decided that waiting until he was five would be a good time frame, based on a lot of different things that were going on in our lives. But as it turned out, we ended up leaving when he was four and a half and we embarked on a two and a half year trip through the Americas.

Jim Santos: 16:36

And this was using a camper van correct.

Jennifer Sparks: 16:38

Yes, yeah, we decided that. You know, in Africa we had a rooftop tent and that actually turned out to be perfect for that environment. But we knew that, going from Alaska to Argentina, that there was going to be the high winds in Patagonia, there was going to be a lot of colder nights in the Andes, and we wanted the opportunity to live indoors as well as outdoors, and so, especially with a child, the camper van was the better solution for us at the time.

Jim Santos: 17:08

So you went through through the Americas. I understand, before we started recording, you mentioned that you also visited the town that we're in now, san Miguel de Allende.

Jennifer Sparks: 17:17

Yes, yes.

Jim Santos: 17:19

So you drove all the way through Mexico.

Jennifer Sparks: 17:21

We did. We spent five months in Mexico and drove through and loved every minute of it. I think we only had two months left on our visa our six-month visa when we left.

Jim Santos: 17:31

Yeah, it's interesting because we've talked about this before that there's a lot of prejudice against Mexico as being this incredibly dangerous place. And you know you must be foolish to take your family on the road through Mexico. And you know you must be foolish to take your family on the road through Mexico, yeah, but you know our impression of it so far has been these are some really wonderful people yeah, yeah, we've enjoyed this so you had no difficulty at all driving through the country no, in fact, if you don't mind, I'd like to dive into that a little bit so sure

Jennifer Sparks: 17:59

um, you know, we, we traveled a year in Africa and we learned that there was a big difference between our on the ground experience and how it was portrayed in the media and perceptions by people that had never been. And so we, you know, we, went back to life in the US with that knowledge. And yet, when it was time to plan our trip through the Americas, we were still influenced by the media. As far as going into Mexico and it was we discovered that it was one thing to make the decision for ourselves as adults and another to make it on behalf of a child. You know, like you know, as an adult, you're like well, something happens, I'm making this decision and it affects me. You know, and maybe that's a selfish way to think about it, but I think that's how we thought about it when we were doing the Africa trip.

Jennifer Sparks: 18:55

But, you know, when you start thinking about innocent child and you're like, you're responsible for making decisions for this child, you know we had some heart to heart discussions. You know, my husband and I about like is this real? Are when I about like is this real, are we really? Are we going to regret this? Is this something? If something happens, people are going to blame the parents, right. So we spent a lot of time thinking about it and researching it and, you know, trying to mitigate risk and all these things, and then, in the end, we've discovered that almost all for nothing, because we had so much positive experience in Mexico In fact we ended up writing a blog post on it, the top 10 things that we loved about Mexico.

Jennifer Sparks: 19:28

It was amazing, and traveling with a child opened up so many doors for us. I can't even tell you like having this child with you, people's demeanor would change. I mean, we started bringing Quinn with us to border checkpoints, you know. I mean he was always in the car with us, but we'd actually take them up to the window and stuff, because people their guard would drop, their smiles would grow. It was. It was amazing. And we discovered that you know we had so much in common with Mexican families, and I mean I could go on and on and on, but it was such an incredibly powerful lesson and experience for all three of us.

Jim Santos: 20:08

Yeah, we've noticed, in South America especially, that the culture really values children.

Rita Santos: 20:13

Right right.

Jim Santos: 20:15

And they really take care of children. They really care about them on a level that you don't see in the US. Children are kind of a nuisance sometimes in the US.

Rita Santos: 20:23

And elderly they take care of their elderly as well. Yeah, the elderly in the US. Children are kind of a nuisance sometimes in the US and elderly they take care of their elderly. Yeah, the elderly and the children, yes.

Jim Santos: 20:29

We had some of our grandchildren come visit us in Ecuador and a couple of them were redheads. The amount of excitement that seeing redheads in South America calls was really fun to watch.

Jennifer Sparks: 20:40

It is. Yeah, our son was blonde at the time, so we had a little bit of a similar experience, although redheads are certainly more rare. But but yes, it it's been amazing, and I think also I noticed a difference of approach, not just to him but to to me in particular too. I think it also affected my husband, but you know, police and everything like that they just you could just see their whole demeanor soften. You know, like all of a sudden I'm a mom and that was like a different, a different vibe, you know.

Jennifer Sparks: 21:12

But yeah, I'd say that of all the places in the world that I would consider actually moving to, mexico is top of the list. And it wouldn't be to some resort, it would be, it would be somewhere inland for sure.

Jim Santos: 21:24

Mean, I just felt like the heart of mexico really connected well with me you know, we just spent a week in a resort in playa del carmen, but it was basically to relax after five weeks of packing up our house to sell it. But here in san miguel we just love, we're mercado people. You know, if you put us close to a bunch of fresh vegetables and fruits, we're happy.

Jennifer Sparks: 21:47

Yeah, yeah, I hear that.

Jim Santos: 21:50

Yes, it's been really pleasant here. Now for your son. You know you talk about. You're taking a risk, but you're also providing your son with an incredible experience to see all these different cultures and the way that different people live.

Jennifer Sparks: 22:03

Yeah, he learned a lot. I mean, you don't know how much kids are taking in, you know, and, and even when you travel with kids younger, they're like, oh, how much are they really going to remember? But you know, they may not remember particular places or experiences, but they remember emotions and they remember things on a deeper level that you can't really verbalize.

Jim Santos: 22:25

Right.

Jennifer Sparks: 22:25

But one thing I felt like when we got back to the US after that trip, we realized that one of the things he learned is that there's real places out there and he can go visit them.

Rita Santos: 22:35

Right.

Jennifer Sparks: 22:36

Yes, and so you know. One example of that is he's really into trains. We visited a lot of train sites in the Americas probably more train museums than I even knew existed and when he got back he learned about a place in Germany, for example. It's called Miniature of Underland and it's, like you know, got all these Guinness Book of World Records for their train layouts and stuff for their train layouts and stuff.

Jennifer Sparks: 23:02

And so, you know, he wasn't even 10. I think he might've been eight or something. And he said you know, mommy, I really want to go there. And so it wasn't like this. It was like and so we made it happen, we figured out a way to go to Germany. We actually spent the summer in the UK that year and capped it off with a trip to Hamburg to visit Miniature wonderland, and you know, but the thing was is that it wasn't. It wasn't like some place on Mars or whatever it was. He had this understanding that there's these places out there and they're real and that he can go see them, and I think he learned that from our trip, and I think he also learned that there's more than one way to live. I'm sure that's just scratching the surface, but those are the things that come to mind right away.

Jim Santos: 23:48

Yeah, that's why we've tried to expose our children and our grandchildren to travel and the idea that the world is a bigger place than your neighborhood.

Rita Santos: 23:57

And really to travel without fear, because everybody wants the same things. They want to be able to take care of their families, and it's it's universal.

Jennifer Sparks: 24:07

Absolutely, I think. I think that's incredibly valuable, that you know, you really understand how that there's different ways of living, there's different ways of speaking, in different languages, of course, but ultimately, the commonalities are what really bring us all together.

Rita Santos: 24:26

Exactly.

Jim Santos: 24:27

Yeah, I understand part of your book is talking about how it seems like you believe, like we do, that the world would be a much more peaceful place and a much happier place, especially as fractious as things are in the US now, if more people got out of their comfort zone and did a little travel to immerse themselves in some other cultures.

Jennifer Sparks: 24:46

Yeah, absolutely. I really believe that, because it's harder to hang on to your fears when you realize that many of them are overly inflated and in some cases misplaced.

Jim Santos: 24:59

Yeah, we found that people in other countries, you know, you always get this idea that everyone envies the U? S and everybody wants to be the U? S and that has not really been our experience. They like our movies and they like our music, but most people are very proud of their own countries and they're proud of their national foods and they're proud of their other customs and if you just show the slightest interest in that, they really open up to you.

Jennifer Sparks: 25:24

Yeah, and I think, I think that pride is is well founded too. I think the other, the other thing that was really obvious to us too is that, while we really do have excellent expertise in many healthcare specialties, I'd say the healthcare system is not not better than other places. And in fact it's it's. It's, it's really hard. I mean, we, my, we had to get healthcare a couple of different times on our trips and I was amazed at how quick, efficient and friendly everything was. I mean, no paperwork, you know. Just you know. It got to the point when I got back to the US and had to fill out forms to go to the dentist, I started to get kind of agitated because I was like, why do they, do I need to fill out this form every single time I go to the dentist? They just saw me six months ago, you know.

Jennifer Sparks: 26:16

But, for example, my, we had a couple experiences. For example, my mother-in-law and father-in-law came to visit us when we were in Ecuador. We were in Cuenca for a while, really loved Cuenca, and they came to visit us for Christmas and New Year's because, well, obviously for Christmas is obvious reasons, but my son actually has a New Year's birthday and so so they came for that. You know, I don't know two weeks stretch or whatever, and there was a big christmas parade in cuenca and my mother-in-law ended up tripping and getting a gash on her forehead and because it was a big event, just like they do in many places in the world when there's a lot of people gathered, you know the ambulances are right there in case something is needed.

Jennifer Sparks: 27:01

And so that was what happened. We had, you know, an ambulance crew right there and they immediately, you know, stepped up to help out. My husband did a lot of the translating and you know they said, okay, well, we, you know, we need to take her to the hospital to get this stitched up. So he rode with her in the ambulance and we they ended up stitching her up pretty quickly and then they said, okay, we'll just come back. You can go to this place or this place or this place to get the stitches removed. You know, in I don't know, it was like a week later or something.

Jennifer Sparks: 27:34

So my mother-in-law and father-in-law went to get the stitches removed at one of the places they recommended, and I think it was like, you know, no forms were ever filled out. They, they just said, before they started, they're like, okay, this is going to be $5. And and, uh, okay. And they're like are you sure this is going to be $5? That you want us to proceed, and so. But it was just sort of. I mean, how many times you get treatment and you have no idea how much it's going to be Right?

Jim Santos: 28:04

So you get the bill.

Jennifer Sparks: 28:05

So you get the bill, but I mean $5, like okay, yeah, fine, Thank you for the transparency here. We're good with it, let's proceed. It was just so refreshing.

Jim Santos: 28:16

Yeah, something that surprises most people when we talk about our experiences with doctors and hospitals and treatment around the world is that invariably, doctors give us their cell phone numbers.

Rita Santos: 28:27

Yes.

Jim Santos: 28:28

And they usually make house calls, yeah, and that just boggles people's mind that they would do that.

Rita Santos: 28:34

Yeah, when we were traveling this fall we were in Prague and we had COVID and we were in this hotel and Jim contacted this doctor online. He came to the hotel with his mini lab, with his nurse. We didn't know we had COVID, we didn't know what was wrong with us, but they treated us, went and got the medication, brought it back. Jim had his cell number. It was just a beautiful thing and we quarantined ourselves in the hotel.

Jim Santos: 29:07

And they followed up with us a couple of days later. Yeah, stopped by the hotel to ask if we were doing okay.

Rita Santos: 29:12

And we've also had surgery in Ecuador. I had my gallbladder removed, Jim had rotator cuff surgery and my doctor came a two-hour drive down to the coast from Guayaquil to check on me. You know it's just wonderful what service and treatment. You're treated like a human being, not a number.

Jennifer Sparks: 29:35

Yeah, I think, yeah, there's so many great stories like that and I second everything you said. It's just, you know, we had the benefit of a house call in Peru and my husband came down with a bug and I was like, really, house calls Like oh yeah, when you're in that state, is a lifesaver because you don't want to be that far from a bathroom, you know. Exactly, yeah, you're in that state is a lifesaver, because you don't want to be that far from a bathroom, you know.

Jennifer Sparks: 30:01

So, yeah, it's, it's really amazing. So, and and just the fact that you don't have to worry a lot of times here in the U? S it's like they won't even see you until they verify that your insurance, you know, is going to cover it, and things like that. So, um, it's just like they just get right to it and and uh, yeah, I always felt like we were really well cared for.

Jim Santos: 30:23

One of the things I think is interesting about your personal story is that, uh, you describe yourself as initially a nervous traveler. Um yeah, I suppose you've gotten over that by now.

Jennifer Sparks: 30:33

Yeah, I think when we first went entered Africa, we crossed at the Strait of Gibraltar and went into Morocco, and to say it was culture shock is true. I mean it's probably an understatement. I was concerned at the time especially about going into an Arab country. We were in the midst of the Iraq War and I didn't know how they were going to treat people with American passports and you know I was kind of scared for my life. And to add interest to the whole thing is that at the time, you know I said we were on leave from our jobs and both of us, both my husband and I, worked for a defense contractor. I found that it was. You know, we had this experience where we spent all day in Casablanca trying to get a replacement for a tire that had blown out. I found that it was. You know, we had this experience where we were spent all day in Casablanca trying to get a replacement for a tire that had blown out, because, even though we had two spares and the tires that we bought were brand new, they had been sitting on a shelf for a long time and so they were. We were getting a lot of flats and we were getting ready to head into the Sahara and really wanted to have something more reliable than that. So we're like okay, last big city, before we enter all that, let's see if we can find a flat tire or find a spare tire. And we ended up going to the service station. We were asking questions in my broken French at the time and this guy, well-dressed businessman, comes up to us and says you know how can I help you? In perfect English, and we explain the situation. He's like okay, follow me. So this guy's like in a really nice car, really well dressed, and he proceeded to. I could tell I knew enough french to know what he was doing. He was on his cell phone he actually had a cell phone at the time this is 2003 and he was canceling meetings and he took us through town. We would follow him to a place and we'd park right behind him and then he'd pay some kid to watch our car and his car, while we went in to talk to somebody and we had to go to several different places and he was very adamant like don't buy anything unless you're absolutely happy with it. We did end up finding a tire that worked for us and at the end of the day, you know, we were completely stunned because we're like why, why would somebody I'm trying to imagine the same situation happening in the US me canceling my entire workday to help somebody I don't know.

Jennifer Sparks: 32:44

And I just couldn't envision it, and so, at the end of the day, my husband asked. Quran, it says that you need to help three different types of people your family, your friends and those that know no one. That's travelers, and you know mic drop right. So that was why he did it, and that was very illuminating. I mean, here we were fearing the worst and we encountered the exact opposite.

Jim Santos: 33:22

Yeah, we had a family and friends that were similarly concerned when we told them we were going to be visiting Istanbul.

Rita Santos: 33:26

Yeah.

Jim Santos: 33:28

They were freaking out as I go and you know it's a both-time country and it's you know. Be careful. You got to be in all this, no no people were very friendly there really had a wonderful time helpful yeah, we've kind of learned a couple things.

Jennifer Sparks: 33:42

One is that, you know, first of all, people don't hold their governments responsible for activities, because a lot of people live in countries where their governments do things that they don't approve of, exactly and then and then you know I mean. Secondly, I think, the further that you get away from tourist areas, in particular the more you're likely to encounter people that are real, genuine and friendly to you yeah, to us that's.

Jim Santos: 34:07

The big benefit of slow travel is that you have time to visit those places where you can just relax and shop at the local shops and meet some of the local people, really get a better idea of what it's like to live in that country.

Jennifer Sparks: 34:20

Right Fully agree.

Jim Santos: 34:22

What type of person do you think could most benefit from your book?

Jennifer Sparks: 34:25

Well, I would say it's a person that's looking for a new experience and maybe has some sense that there's more out there to life than the way they've been living it to date. I think it could be useful from anybody to like a young backpacker to somebody retired and everything in between, because part of the things we cover in the book is you know how you can support yourself. So if you wanted to make it more than a few months and you didn't want to save up all the money, you know how, how could you have a lifestyle that could be more permanent or longer lasting, like years instead of?

Jennifer Sparks: 35:07

instead of months or weeks, yeah, so I think it just gives you a good springboard to think about the things that would help enable you to do that.

Jim Santos: 35:23

Now I know, as an author myself, that you're not going to get rich from publishing this book, so what?

Jennifer Sparks: 35:29

was your major goal? What did you want to do? What did you want to say in this book? I really wanted other people who thought that they might want to do something like this to have the way to do it. I get as probably you do too.

Jennifer Sparks: 35:39

Anybody that travels for any length of time gets a lot of questions, and you know you can, with the people that you have time to sit down face to face with, you can kind of explain it, but having a book that you can kind of reference is helpful. And and then there's people that you know you know you'll never meet, but that might stumble across the book and read it and it inspires them to think about life a little differently.

Jim Santos: 36:04

Yeah, as an author, there's nothing more wonderful than getting a random email from somebody who says that they were, you know, somehow touched or motivated by what you wrote, absolutely. So what's next for you? Starting to get the urge to get out there again.

Jennifer Sparks: 36:17

Well. So more recently, we spent a year in Europe when my father-in-law passed. My mother-in-law said I would like you to take me traveling, and so we did, and it was delayed by a year because of COVID. We were going to leave in 2020 and ended up leaving in 2021. We spent like seven months in the Balkans. We were waiting for our camper van to be completed and, with the supply chain issues that the whole world was experiencing, our van was delayed, and so we ended up changing our plans. What was originally.

Jennifer Sparks: 36:51

We changed our plans in a number of different ways, but what we ended up doing was shortening it from what was going to be like two years down to one year, and we rented a van through a company in Paris and we did five months in addition to the seven months that we did in Airbnb's in the Balkans. We did seven, spent seven months, the four of us in a camper van driving through most of Western Europe. You know, having done the Airbnb thing is great, because you can kind of do a deep dive into a location in a month at a time or multiple months at a time. The advantage of like a camper van is, first of all, you know whenever you travel in. Like any type of mobile home, you want it to be as big as possible when you're parked and as small as possible when you're driving. But what the advantage of it is is that you have a different backyard every day, if you choose to.

Rita Santos: 37:44

Right.

Jennifer Sparks: 37:45

And so you can cover a lot more territory in a shorter amount of time and you can do it longer too, like in two and a half years in South America.

Jennifer Sparks: 37:54

We were primarily in a camper van, and so we stayed longer periods of time in different places, sometimes several days at a time, and then we'd stay in Airbnbs every once in a while, so my husband could work, because he got a job while we were traveling.

Jennifer Sparks: 38:09

But the camper van in Europe was a really good way for us to see a lot in a short amount of time. We probably traveled faster than most of us were comfortable with, but we decided that, in order for all four of us to get out of the trip what we wanted to and to have it be a success, that we needed to hit certain places, and we all had our top three. So we did our best to try to factor all that in, but it meant that we were hitting places like Portugal and Prague and Ireland, and so, like all of a sudden, we we had to cover a lot of territory, but every night we knew we were sleeping and we had. We could make meals wherever we needed to, and so it's a. It's a. It's a different way to go, but I really love it.

Rita Santos: 38:53

Didn't you have to find a place that would allow you to park?

Jennifer Sparks: 38:56

You know, there's campgrounds everywhere. Yeah there are.

Rita Santos: 39:00

But I didn't know that in Europe there would be, but okay.

Jennifer Sparks: 39:03

Oh yeah, oh yeah, there's a lot and there's also you know, as you get into it there's apps where you can do kind of non-traditional camping. For example, we camped one night at a vineyard Like there's I can't remember the name of the app, but there's an app where you can stay on farms and vineyards and various places, like that people's backyards in exchange for something and with the vineyard you could camp for free.

Jennifer Sparks: 39:30

They gave you access to bathrooms and showers and it's sort of with the friendly agreement that you will purchase some wine from them.

Rita Santos: 39:39

Right.

Jim Santos: 39:41

And so we did. They gave us.

Jennifer Sparks: 39:43

Yeah, it was harsh, it was really harsh, you know. But we, yeah, we did a really lovely tasting that evening and we ended up buying several cases of wine because it was so good, and so, yeah, there's there's opportunities like that where you can do that. And I just learned that there's an app similar to that in the US now, there probably was before, I just didn't know about it. And then iOverlander is a really good app for finding non-traditional camping places as well.

Jim Santos: 40:11

Yeah, what I would worry about, I think, with the camper van are the places that you couldn't get to too easily, like for instance I can't imagine a camper van coming down the streets in San Miguel here.

Jennifer Sparks: 40:21

Oh, we did it.

Jim Santos: 40:22

You did it.

Jennifer Sparks: 40:23

Some are so near Well. I mean the campground that we stayed in San Miguel. It was slightly on the outskirts of town, it was inside the city limits but it was not right down in the main plaza area. Okay, yeah, but you know, the nice thing is you can park it and then you can, you know, take a car, you know, take a taxi or walk to wherever you need to go.

Rita Santos: 40:44

Right.

Jennifer Sparks: 40:45

So yeah it. You know there's different parameters on how you do some of the logistics and there's pros and cons to all of it, but the I really, really like it because you always know where you're going to sleep at night and, like some places in Central America, we literally just pulled off the road, but it gives you a lot of flexibility.

Jim Santos: 41:03

Do you have any trouble with, you know, licensing or driving from one country to another? We have an international driver's license, but no, they're, they're basically.

Rita Santos: 41:10

Nothing really.

Jim Santos: 41:12

They're basically just. If you're in a country that uses a different alphabet, they could read the translation that says yes, you have a license, but did you have any difficulty with that as you crossed borders?

Jennifer Sparks: 41:28

No, I mean we had extra copies of our driver's license made. We just used our Colorado driver's license. We did have an international driver's license as backup, but nobody ever asked for it. But then you need to have proof of your registration and stuff and a lot of times when you enter countries they just want proof that you're not going to sell the car while you're there. But that's just getting through customs and it's a fairly straightforward process.

Jim Santos: 41:51

Was there any particular company you used when you were looking for the campers? Because we actually explored that a little bit during COVID as a way that we could still travel and stay relatively safe, and it seemed like the RV rentals were pretty expensive.

Jennifer Sparks: 42:05

Yeah, I mean it's definitely the longer you go, the cheaper it is to own your own. I mean it would be cheaper to buy one, get it kitted out the way you want to and sell it when you're done.

Jim Santos: 42:15

We thought about that too.

Jennifer Sparks: 42:20

Yeah, we did, and that's what we were planning to do. We we actually had an order for a brand new one that was going to be built in germany by, uh, the company naus k-n-a-u-s, and then we were going to buy it through a distributor in france and you know just, it got delayed, delayed, delayed and through just the natural order of things at the time, sure, and so then we ended up renting through Avis, which was more expensive. So it would have cost us 20,000 euros to buy a van and instead we ended up spending 20,000 euros to rent one for five months. So I mean, if we were originally planning a two-year trip, we buy and then sell it and hopefully get most of that back After two years. You still have to go through the trouble of buying and selling and all the registration and insurance and all the stuff that goes with that. But the longer the time period that you're going on, it's less of a hurdle, because it's worth the convenience and the cost savings to have that over the longer period of time.

Jennifer Sparks: 43:16

We ended up going through Avis in Paris, which I highly recommend. They were really, really good and we got we got a brand new van. I mean it had, it had a handful of kilometers on it when we got it and it was brand new and they took. They took good care of us and you know it covered five months. So we had it for five months and I think it helped that we were starting in March and ending in July, because August is their peak season.

Rita Santos: 43:41

And we had a hard stop.

Jennifer Sparks: 43:42

We had a hard stop because somebody else had already booked it for August. I think August was, you know, probably would have been a lot more expensive for that month as well.

Jim Santos: 43:51

That's something we'll have to look into.

Rita Santos: 43:52

Yeah, be interesting.

Jim Santos: 43:54

Because we are actually fairly new at the slow travel thing. We've done a lot of basic travel and we've lived in another country, but there's all kinds of little tips and tricks that you pick up from people who have gone before you.

Rita Santos: 44:06

I didn't know that you could buy a camper van for 20,000 euros.

Jennifer Sparks: 44:12

No, I'm sorry, it was going to be a lot more than that. I misspoke. That was what we had to put down for the deposit. It was going to be like 70. And then we were hoping to resell it back, but we ended up spending the equivalent of our deposit on the rental. So I'm sorry.

Rita Santos: 44:27

I got my details wrong there. Yeah, okay, wow, I was going to say wow.

Jim Santos: 44:31

Yeah, so that's balanced against. You're not paying rent for places to stay.

Jennifer Sparks: 44:35

Exactly, yeah. And one thing I will tell you that if you do decide to explore this, it's really key. I mean, it can save you a lot of money if you can keep it under six meters length. So we had a 20 foot van, so it was just under six meters. It was 5.9 something, and the reason is because the tolls and parking and everything like ferries.

Jennifer Sparks: 45:03

It's all geared towards a vehicle that's less than six meters long, so once you go longer than that, you're paying more. You know, we had a pop top, so we had a tent that popped up from the top, and then we had a bed in the back and we had a shower. We had a toilet and a kitchen and you know, so we could, we could literally live in it. It was. It was very, very comfortable, even for four of us of us crammed into that little thing.

Rita Santos: 45:22

We hadn't thought about doing that through Europe actually.

Jennifer Sparks: 45:26

Yeah, you know, if you get the opportunity, I think it would be a really good opportunity, especially to see, like I mean, we didn't get to do this but to see, for example, the you know, see like Norway, sweden, finland they have a lot of. I mean, you can pretty much camp anywhere up there and, as you know, those countries are really, really expensive, so that's a really great way to do it. And when we we ended up stopping in Iceland on our way back to the U S and we discovered that there's a lot of Europeans that will ship their camper van on a ferry from Europe to Iceland and you stop at, like the Faroe Islands on the way and then they people will spend like weeks or a month like touring Iceland in their camper van.

Jim Santos: 46:11

That must be a wonderful trip.

Jennifer Sparks: 46:12

It was really good, we all enjoyed it and, considering we were in a 20 foot long van, we all enjoyed it Like we all made it work and we all have some good memories from that. And my son was a teenager at the time and a new teenager and he really wanted to return home. So we ended up coming back and now he's a freshman in high school, and so our commitment now is we've got him in a really good school and we're going to see it out, get him launched, and then we'll figure out what we're going to do next. But all kids, we believe, need roots and wings.

Jennifer Sparks: 46:48

And we've tried to balance the two throughout our son's life and I think at this stage, I think we're helping him grow deeper roots so that he can soar on his own.

Jim Santos: 47:03

Well, we've been chatting with Jennifer Sparks. She's the author of "Slow Travel - escape the Grind and Explore the World. It's available on Amazon in both Kindle and paperback formats. Jennifer, thanks for joining us today on Travels with Jim and Rita, and maybe we'll run into you in some corner of the world.

Jennifer Sparks: 47:18

That would be lovely.

Jim Santos: 47:33

Now, before we go, a reminder that Rita and I will be at the 2024 Ultimate Go Overseas Boot Camp coming up in Las Vegas, nevada, october 26th through the 28th. I'm on the hook for a couple of presentations and we'll both be in the exhibit hall to answer questions about slow travel, the places we visited and our plans for the future. There'll be expats and experts from around the world and if you're interested in attending, check out intliving. com/ events. That's I-N-T living dot com slash events for more information or to make reservations. That's it for this week's show. Keep listening, keep spreading the word on social media. If you can, please take a moment to leave a rating and review and, of course, subscriptions are always welcome. If you have any questions or you'd like to tell your own story, just email me at Jim@ Jim Santos books. com, and, of course, you can find my books, short stories and audiobooks on my Amazon page at jimsantos. net. Until next time, remember we travel not to escape life, but so that life does not escape us. Thank you.